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which means you'll unfortunately never

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alright higher side chatter strap

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yourself in for another ride through the

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strange and mysterious world from sunny

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San Diego I'm Greg Carwood and over the

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years we've talked about everything from

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celestial Holograms and the Saturn moon

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matrix to the history of false Flags and

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dark experimentation on unsuspecting

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people and clearly some of these topics

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are more serious than others though many

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of them do require a healthy dose of

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speculation what are the aliens and

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spirits really want

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how does Bigfoot get back to the an

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earth so quickly and can i really think

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myself to a dream reality and while

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speculation isn't off the table entirely

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today we are going to focus in on a

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specific event that no doubt happen

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we just don't yet know who pulled it off

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I'm talking about the intriguing case of

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DB Cooper the mysterious man who pulled

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off the only unsolved skyjacking in

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aviation history on the day before

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Thanksgiving in 1971 for those who are

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unfamiliar after handing a stewardess a

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note that he had a bomb and of course

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drinking a little drink of smoke a

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little smoke many things transpired but

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his demands for 200 thousand and ransom

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were granted and he parachuted from the

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plane to an uncertain fate he's been

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called an anti James Bond a gentleman

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thief and a legendary pirate of the

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skies but what he hasn't been called is

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his real name because despite an

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extensive manhunt and the best efforts

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of the FBI DB Cooper remains

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unidentified

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well today just before the big event

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known as Cooper con in Portland on the

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weekend of November 22nd we're joined by

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one of the leading authorities on the DB

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Cooper case

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Darren Schaefer the host of the

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seriously great podcast the Cooper

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vortex where each episode he interviews

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a witness or researcher who thinks

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they've solved the mystery and lets them

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make their best case without much

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resistance or interruption and approach

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to podcasting that I can certainly

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appreciate so without further ado the

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Cooper caper castor himself Darren

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welcome to the higher side thanks for

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having me home Greg I appreciate that -

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the hell of an introduction thanks man I

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try and I appreciate you being here I

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think this is gonna be really

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interesting sometimes things can get

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pretty heavy around here but this is a

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nice light break from all that and when

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you would first reached out to me even

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though I never done a DB Cooper episode

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I wasn't sure we could fill the full two

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hours and keep it interesting because

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the story of the events can be summed up

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rather quickly but then I checked out

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your podcast the Cooper vortex and

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realized that you've done over 30 hours

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on it so surely we can make a compelling

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- but I do love the way you do the show

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it's not far off from what I try to do

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bring people on to make their best case

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and leave it at that of course on your

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show it's people who think they know

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what happened or who DB Cooper was and I

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got sucked in you'll have a guest

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Vince DB Cooper was their uncle or

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someone who lived next door to a guy in

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the woods that they think was him others

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think he was also the Zodiac killer and

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some say it was an inside job there's a

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long list of suspects and now I just

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want to know you know you got me sucked

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into it but let me ask the question that

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you often ask first how did you get

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interested in the case how did you get

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sucked into the Cooper vortex as it were

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I was living in Woodland Washington at

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the time which is just right outside the

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drop zone and so it was just a local

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story something I was interested in a

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bunch of people followed it locally he

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was kind of a folk hero and then my wife

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got me this book Skyjack as a gift by

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Jeffrey Grey and I had it on my shelf

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for awhile I eventually read it and in

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that book towards the end of it one of

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the guys he's talking to said he stopped

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talking to me because he's gonna write

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his own book so I looked on Amazon and

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that book was already out by then so I

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grabbed that one into the blast with

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Robert Blevins and I just fell into the

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rabbit hole of DB Cooper at that point I

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was so fascinated by the fact that there

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is no real evidence or DB Cooper for Dan

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Cooper aside from what happened on that

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plane but there are a ton of different

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suspects who seem pretty plausible and a

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huge community of people trying to solve

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this case on their own yeah I mean

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you've really gone down this rabbit hole

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for sure you've read 12 or 13 books on

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it at this point interviewed so many

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people it's impressive and so I'm sure

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this story is familiar to some people

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and I really just try to give the bare

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bones bullet points there on the intro

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because it's best to have you walk us

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through it

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give us that traditional play-by-play of

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events so that we're all on the same

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page and then we can dig into some of

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those details

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absolutely so Thanksgiving Eve November

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24 1971 a guy in a black raincoat or

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trench coat in a business suit carrying

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an attache case or briefcase

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buys a ticket at the Portland

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International Airport one way to Seattle

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it's $20 he gives his name is Dan Cooper

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on the ticket the plane he asks

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specifically if the plane is a 727 they

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confirmed that he's one of the last to

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board the plane sits in the back of the

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plane shortly after takeoff around 3

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o'clock 2:45 p.m. he hands stewardess

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Florence Schaffner a note she assumes

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it's just another businessman hitting on

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her

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she's a good-looking gal so she puts the

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note in her pocket doesn't look at it

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and walks away he sees her do this comes

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back and he's like ma'am you might want

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to take a look at that note I have a

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bomb so she takes a note up to the

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pilots he wants $200,000 and four

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parachutes before they land in Seattle

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so the plane lands in Seattle he gets

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his money into parachutes they bring it

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back on the plane plane takes off at

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approximately 7 o'clock 7:45

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and then he asked for the very specific

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flight instruction then they take off he

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wants the plane to fly at its minimum

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stall speed which is just over a hundred

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knots about 120 miles an hour he wants

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the landing gear down he wants the flaps

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set to 15 degrees and the plane to stay

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at approximately 10,000 feet with the

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cabin depressurized hmm and then he asks

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for the plane to take off with the rear

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air stairs down the plane he hijacked

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that 727 was one of just I believe two

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at the time that had a rear air stairs

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or an aft stairs that would lower so if

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this plane flew into a small airport

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that didn't want to have one of those

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stair trucks the passengers could board

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and deplane using those air stairs the

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pilots weren't even sure if the plane

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could take off with the stairs down they

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said it was unsafe he argued with them

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that it was perfectly safe but he's not

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going to get into it he'll just lower

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the stairs in flight and then the pilots

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contact air traffic control because

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they're not even sure if the plane can

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fly with the stairs down is it going to

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cause the plane to crash they're not

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sure air traffic control isn't sure

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either so they reached out to Boeing can

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this plane fly with the rear air stairs

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down and Boeing says yes we've actually

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done some testing and done some other

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things with that it isn't a problem the

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plane can fly like that so he knew more

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about this plane than the pilots flying

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it amazing so he has his parachutes and

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money the plane takes off

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and he asks the stewardess to go back up

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into the cockpit and then sometime in

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between Seattle and Reno he jumps out of

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the plane never to be seen again

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yes it is a really impressive and fun

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story and one of the details I think we

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might have left out there is when the

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plane stopped in Seattle that's when all

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the other passengers got off right I

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mean they didn't even know they were

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being hijacked

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that's correct none of them knew they

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were being hijacked until they got off

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the plane and then of course the FBI is

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waiting there and they want to know you

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know who's standing there and who's not

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because that means that person is the

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one that's hijacking it and they have

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the name of Dan Cooper it goes out on AP

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wire immediately and there's some mix-up

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there is a low-level criminal I think he

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was convicted of armed robbery by the

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name of DB Cooper in Portland and

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because of that mix-up it just went out

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to the press as DB Cooper instead of Dan

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Cooper and I believe the FBI never

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corrected that as part of their

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investigation so if somebody said oh it

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was me I gave my name is DB Cooper they

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would know that that wasn't true right

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right

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hmm yes and he was so meticulous with

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the details and the planning one detail

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I'd heard is that he had the staff

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closed all the windows to avoid snipers

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on the plane you know during the part

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where they were landed and he was also

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apparently quite nice and quite

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accommodating to the staff I heard that

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he had requested even had to have meals

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for the flight staff when they landed in

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Seattle is that accurate that's correct

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yeah he asked for four meals for the

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crew Tina Mucklow and Florence Schaffner

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both said that he was polite and cordial

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and that he never appeared nervous is

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something that I've always been really

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fascinated by you know they gave his age

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as approximately mid to late 40s which a

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man that age it would be unusual for him

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to commit such a bold daring crime you

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know jumping out of an airplane

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and generally been that age aren't doing

272
00:11:57,109 --> 00:11:56,279
wild and saying crimes like that you

273
00:12:00,439 --> 00:11:57,119
know would be something you'd expect

274
00:12:04,669 --> 00:12:00,449
from someone that was 22 mm-hmm not

275
00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:04,679
someone who was 47 indeed and some of

276
00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:07,049
the most interesting details to me kind

277
00:12:12,889 --> 00:12:09,809
of what we're talking about are his

278
00:12:15,469 --> 00:12:12,899
behavior on the plane and his actions

279
00:12:18,139 --> 00:12:15,479
they say as you mentioned he was calm

280
00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:18,149
and pretty nice of course he did drink a

281
00:12:21,619 --> 00:12:19,889
little drink and smoke a little smoke on

282
00:12:24,769 --> 00:12:21,629
there what more can you tell us about

283
00:12:27,849 --> 00:12:24,779
those limited interactions and behaviors

284
00:12:30,499 --> 00:12:27,859
that help us to get a sense of the guy

285
00:12:32,599 --> 00:12:30,509
well the only thing that's really known

286
00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:32,609
about him is you know what Tina Mucklow

287
00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:35,220
said because she sits next to him on the

288
00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:37,889
plane for about five hours I mean she

289
00:12:42,379 --> 00:12:40,649
sat there she lit his cigarettes which I

290
00:12:45,199 --> 00:12:42,389
just love that part of the story

291
00:12:48,079 --> 00:12:45,209
and after he hands the note off to the

292
00:12:49,729 --> 00:12:48,089
first stewardess for whatever reason a

293
00:12:51,739 --> 00:12:49,739
different stewardess kind of continues

294
00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:51,749
the interaction with him but after that

295
00:12:56,149 --> 00:12:52,529
first note

296
00:12:59,779 --> 00:12:56,159
he puts sunglasses on which I just loved

297
00:13:02,569 --> 00:12:59,789
that and if you look at those iconic

298
00:13:04,879 --> 00:13:02,579
sketches of DB Cooper there he has

299
00:13:06,649 --> 00:13:04,889
sunglasses on in him which is just great

300
00:13:09,219 --> 00:13:06,659
so he's sitting there in a business suit

301
00:13:12,079 --> 00:13:09,229
hijacking the plane wearing sunglasses

302
00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:12,089
having a stewardess light his cigarettes

303
00:13:18,499 --> 00:13:14,569
and drinking bourbon yeah

304
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:18,509
and that was another detail in terms of

305
00:13:25,099 --> 00:13:22,409
his character and his thoughtfulness of

306
00:13:27,379 --> 00:13:25,109
the staff is apparently he paid for the

307
00:13:29,949 --> 00:13:27,389
bourbon and tried to give the change to

308
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:29,959
that stewardess even though he's also

309
00:13:36,079 --> 00:13:33,689
hijacking the plane for $200,000 yeah I

310
00:13:37,819 --> 00:13:36,089
tried to tip him for the drinks which

311
00:13:41,599 --> 00:13:37,829
they refused and said they couldn't

312
00:13:43,939 --> 00:13:41,609
accept gratuities and then when he got

313
00:13:45,649 --> 00:13:43,949
the money on the plane he's going

314
00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:45,659
through it and the stewardess said that

315
00:13:50,259 --> 00:13:47,419
he appeared excited you know it's

316
00:13:52,239 --> 00:13:50,269
$200,000 in 20s

317
00:13:55,059 --> 00:13:52,249
in a bag that she brings on the plane to

318
00:13:57,699 --> 00:13:55,069
him and she remarks you wow that's a lot

319
00:14:00,489 --> 00:13:57,709
of money he grabs a few bundles and

320
00:14:02,499 --> 00:14:00,499
hands it to her and she says oh I'm

321
00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:02,509
sorry I can't accept gratuity again

322
00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:05,809
making you know the joke about with his

323
00:14:09,879 --> 00:14:08,300
drinks and whatnot but that part is so

324
00:14:12,009 --> 00:14:09,889
fascinating I mean he's risking his life

325
00:14:14,859 --> 00:14:12,019
to do this but seems to not care that

326
00:14:16,749 --> 00:14:14,869
much about the money yeah that is an

327
00:14:17,769 --> 00:14:16,759
interesting detail that was gonna be one

328
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:17,779
of the questions I was gonna get to

329
00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:19,610
later but let's just ask it now do you

330
00:14:25,150 --> 00:14:22,550
think he had other motivations obviously

331
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:25,160
money is a huge motivation but was there

332
00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:28,610
something else there I think there was I

333
00:14:33,549 --> 00:14:30,860
mean it depends on what narrative what

334
00:14:35,139 --> 00:14:33,559
book he read whose theory er you're into

335
00:14:36,489 --> 00:14:35,149
I mean some people say the money it

336
00:14:38,650 --> 00:14:36,499
wasn't about the money at all other

337
00:14:41,519 --> 00:14:38,660
people say you know obviously it was

338
00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:41,529
he's hijacking a plane for that money

339
00:14:45,549 --> 00:14:43,910
but he does seem to have kind of a

340
00:14:47,819 --> 00:14:45,559
cavalier attitude about it

341
00:14:49,629 --> 00:14:47,829
I mean maybe he didn't need all of it

342
00:14:51,549 --> 00:14:49,639
$200,000 doesn't sound like that much

343
00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:51,559
today but it's approximately a million

344
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:54,470
and a quarter adjusted for inflation so

345
00:15:00,009 --> 00:14:57,199
it's a lot of money right I mean if I

346
00:15:01,809 --> 00:15:00,019
robbed a bank or hijacked a plane for a

347
00:15:04,809 --> 00:15:01,819
million dollars I don't know that I

348
00:15:07,569 --> 00:15:04,819
would be giving it away at the time I I

349
00:15:10,539 --> 00:15:07,579
don't see myself doing that yes I agree

350
00:15:12,910 --> 00:15:10,549
and tell me if this is true but I heard

351
00:15:15,309 --> 00:15:12,920
at one point a flight attendant had

352
00:15:17,259 --> 00:15:15,319
asked why their airline and he said I

353
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:17,269
don't have a grudge against your airline

354
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:21,199
I just have a grudge exactly I don't

355
00:15:26,169 --> 00:15:22,639
have a grudge against your airline miss

356
00:15:28,929 --> 00:15:26,179
I just have a grudge that's awesome and

357
00:15:31,449 --> 00:15:28,939
obviously the details are spares but is

358
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:31,459
there any other dialogue that we know

359
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:32,970
about

360
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:36,330
not really I mean we only have what what

361
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:37,920
Tina Mucklow said she talked to him

362
00:15:43,010 --> 00:15:40,710
about was few and far between he asked

363
00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:43,020
to have his notes back that he was

364
00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:45,510
relaying back and forth with the cockpit

365
00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:49,230
and the only real evidence left on the

366
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:51,000
plane when he jumped out was a black

367
00:15:56,270 --> 00:15:53,490
clip-on tie right that's a little

368
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:56,280
strange he left his black clip-on tie

369
00:16:02,480 --> 00:15:59,610
but requested his notes back and then

370
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:02,490
they had the cigarette butts and they

371
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:04,890
also had the whiskey glass but that was

372
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:06,480
mixed in with other glasses because this

373
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:08,450
is 1971 and they're not big on

374
00:16:15,410 --> 00:16:12,410
collecting DNA type of evidence right

375
00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:15,420
hmm yeah the cigarette butts there's a

376
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:18,870
lot of discussion about that a lot of

377
00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:20,250
people have said over the years that

378
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:22,950
they were lost in the evidence handoff

379
00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:25,890
between Reno and Portland in Seattle and

380
00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:28,590
local police FBI but I've actually seen

381
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:31,380
an FBI document since the FBI is

382
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:35,570
releasing a lot of this now where the

383
00:16:40,130 --> 00:16:38,370
instruction was to examine the cigarette

384
00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:40,140
butts for evidence and then throw him

385
00:16:46,130 --> 00:16:43,520
away hmm which you know obviously today

386
00:16:49,790 --> 00:16:46,140
they're insanely valuable because there

387
00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:49,800
would be great DNA on but in 1971 there

388
00:16:55,130 --> 00:16:52,230
wasn't that thought so unfortunately

389
00:16:57,890 --> 00:16:55,140
they probably were thrown away right

390
00:17:00,980 --> 00:16:57,900
right and I watched The History Channel

391
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:00,990
piece on this and the FBI agent that

392
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:03,090
they interviewed said that he used

393
00:17:07,430 --> 00:17:05,730
filthy language but I had not heard that

394
00:17:10,460 --> 00:17:07,440
anywhere else said gee who does that

395
00:17:13,100 --> 00:17:10,470
jive with what you've heard that's

396
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:13,110
something that Ralph Hamels Bach has

397
00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:15,330
said you know he said that he's a sleazy

398
00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:18,660
scummy criminal that he used foul

399
00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:21,060
language like you said but there really

400
00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:24,150
isn't any evidence of that and I'm not

401
00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:28,080
sure why he's he said that a couple

402
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:31,560
people have theories as to why Ralph has

403
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:34,290
has gone on like that but he is an FBI

404
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:36,210
agent talking about a man who committed

405
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:39,810
a crime right yeah he is already

406
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:43,970
predisposed to villainize this person

407
00:17:47,889 --> 00:17:46,340
yeah and it is interesting that in this

408
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:47,899
that no one was hurt

409
00:17:53,889 --> 00:17:50,480
right the only person who was possibly

410
00:17:56,799 --> 00:17:53,899
hurt in this was Dan Cooper himself and

411
00:17:58,990 --> 00:17:56,809
that is what makes me side more with

412
00:18:01,389 --> 00:17:59,000
these stewardesses accounts and not this

413
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:01,399
FBI agent because if he really was some

414
00:18:07,539 --> 00:18:05,120
sleazy loudmouth criminal it would be

415
00:18:09,519 --> 00:18:07,549
hard for everyone on the plane to not

416
00:18:13,869 --> 00:18:09,529
know they were high judged clearly there

417
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:13,879
was some smoothness to his operation to

418
00:18:19,930 --> 00:18:16,370
keep the stewardess calm to keep people

419
00:18:21,249 --> 00:18:19,940
from being in the know clearly the facts

420
00:18:23,499 --> 00:18:21,259
that I know about the case seem to

421
00:18:26,919 --> 00:18:23,509
suggest that he was pretty soon who the

422
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:26,929
guy absolutely I mean I really believe

423
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:30,320
that this was was planned so thoroughly

424
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:34,970
and so well and orchestrated essentially

425
00:18:40,749 --> 00:18:38,210
perfectly like you were saying no one on

426
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:40,759
the plane knew they were being hijacked

427
00:18:46,180 --> 00:18:43,129
everyone was calm and then immediately

428
00:18:49,149 --> 00:18:46,190
after the stewardesses were calm and

429
00:18:53,049 --> 00:18:49,159
said that you know he was polite he

430
00:18:54,850 --> 00:18:53,059
didn't appear nervous now when it came

431
00:18:57,580 --> 00:18:54,860
to the things that he had he did have

432
00:18:59,830 --> 00:18:57,590
this apparent bomb in a briefcase and we

433
00:19:00,430 --> 00:18:59,840
can talk about it maybe that was real or

434
00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:00,440
not

435
00:19:06,610 --> 00:19:03,679
but he also had a brown paper bag is

436
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:06,620
that correct that is correct

437
00:19:10,509 --> 00:19:08,450
brown paper bag I've heard it called a

438
00:19:14,529 --> 00:19:10,519
canvas sack I've heard people say it was

439
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:14,539
Green but he did have some other bag

440
00:19:18,909 --> 00:19:17,570
with him and of course nobody knows

441
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:18,919
what's in that you can only speculate

442
00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:21,110
you know maybe it was gloves and goggles

443
00:19:25,930 --> 00:19:24,289
or jump boots because if you're jumping

444
00:19:27,639 --> 00:19:25,940
out of a plane everyone said he was

445
00:19:31,330 --> 00:19:27,649
wearing loafers which would be ideal

446
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:31,340
foot ware you know jumping out of a

447
00:19:37,899 --> 00:19:33,950
plane at 10,000 feet overhead at 120

448
00:19:39,580 --> 00:19:37,909
miles an hour into the woods yes I heard

449
00:19:42,909 --> 00:19:39,590
you bring that up on other podcasts that

450
00:19:45,009 --> 00:19:42,919
if you had a bet it was probably some

451
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,019
kind of items for the jump the gloves

452
00:19:51,070 --> 00:19:47,600
and the goggles because experts say it's

453
00:19:53,379 --> 00:19:51,080
very difficult to do without that and

454
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:53,389
let's get into that question the big one

455
00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:56,210
of survivability to jump out of the back

456
00:19:59,930 --> 00:19:57,450
of an aircraft mid

457
00:20:04,190 --> 00:19:59,940
light in the rain in the dark with none

458
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:04,200
of this stuff is not easy obviously it's

459
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:06,090
a lot more fun to think that the guy

460
00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:07,919
lived and I know you've interviewed

461
00:20:11,779 --> 00:20:10,289
people on both sides of this question

462
00:20:15,769 --> 00:20:11,789
but what are your thoughts what are the

463
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,779
arguments for and against I believe that

464
00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:18,240
he survived the jump based on what I've

465
00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:19,950
read and everything and also it's much

466
00:20:24,830 --> 00:20:21,960
more fun to believe that he survived the

467
00:20:28,009 --> 00:20:24,840
jump mm-hmm Marty Andrade has got a book

468
00:20:31,399 --> 00:20:28,019
finding DB Cooper where he does a

469
00:20:34,430 --> 00:20:31,409
fantastic job essentially it might be

470
00:20:37,659 --> 00:20:34,440
improving that the jump was survivable

471
00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:37,669
he goes through a bunch of World War 2

472
00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:40,590
ejections when planes are being shot

473
00:20:45,860 --> 00:20:43,860
down and the survivability of those

474
00:20:48,139 --> 00:20:45,870
dudes and they're jumping out in their

475
00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:48,149
plane was shot down they're jumping out

476
00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:52,380
in as bad or worse conditions under

477
00:20:57,769 --> 00:20:56,190
immense pressure and they had very most

478
00:21:00,680 --> 00:20:57,779
of them very little parachute training

479
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:00,690
maybe one practice jump and some of them

480
00:21:05,659 --> 00:21:02,850
may be only classroom training on

481
00:21:08,539 --> 00:21:05,669
jumping out of a plane and in his book

482
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:08,549
it's over a 90% survivability of those

483
00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:12,510
do's and DB Cooper was jumping out under

484
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:14,700
better conditions than than most of

485
00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:17,370
those jumps he knew he was going to be

486
00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:19,529
jumping he's standing on the rear air

487
00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:22,049
stairs the plane wasn't shot down or

488
00:21:28,410 --> 00:21:25,769
anything like that but the FBI has said

489
00:21:29,970 --> 00:21:28,420
they believe he died in the jump

490
00:21:31,530 --> 00:21:29,980
you know but probably because they

491
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:31,540
couldn't figure out who did it so it's

492
00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:35,290
just easier for them to say that yes yes

493
00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:39,190
and he seems to have known quite a bit

494
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:41,260
about the conditions in which to jump

495
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:44,559
and apparently even the parachute came

496
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:46,450
with instructions and he said that he

497
00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:49,120
would not need those but I have heard

498
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:51,790
that the particular parachute that he

499
00:21:55,470 --> 00:21:53,710
requested or that he was given I'm not

500
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:55,480
sure if he requested this model but it

501
00:21:59,910 --> 00:21:57,730
was apparently hard to use or maybe it

502
00:22:01,890 --> 00:21:59,920
would be a clue to his previous

503
00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:01,900
experience can you tell us about the

504
00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:04,840
parachute yeah I think that's important

505
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:08,470
so he asks for four parachutes two front

506
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:12,090
shoots and two back shoots which seems

507
00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:15,250
like industry jargon to me you know

508
00:22:22,669 --> 00:22:18,280
mm-hmm or like he was trained in that

509
00:22:25,650 --> 00:22:22,679
terminology and he's given a military

510
00:22:27,870 --> 00:22:25,660
parachute and a civilian parachute the

511
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:27,880
civilian parachute is more sport one

512
00:22:34,260 --> 00:22:31,809
more modern it's steerable and the

513
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:34,270
military shoot is not and he chooses to

514
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:37,780
use the military shoot and some people

515
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:39,970
will say well that's proof that he

516
00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:41,710
didn't know what he was doing because he

517
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:44,590
should have chosen that sport shoot it

518
00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:46,690
was a better design more modern and like

519
00:22:53,780 --> 00:22:50,980
I said steerable but I've also heard

520
00:22:57,630 --> 00:22:53,790
that it was that was the correct choice

521
00:23:00,840 --> 00:22:57,640
because that sport shoot could not have

522
00:23:03,630 --> 00:23:00,850
handled opening at that speed and could

523
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:03,640
have been shredded to pieces and the

524
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:06,400
shoot military shoot he chose I've heard

525
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:08,950
it called the the pitbull of parachutes

526
00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:12,820
it's just absolutely tough and could

527
00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:15,460
have done this no problem and Tina as

528
00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:17,740
she's going to the cockpit looks back to

529
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:20,049
see him putting on that military

530
00:23:26,159 --> 00:23:23,410
parachute and says that it looks like he

531
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:26,169
had done it many times before and I've

532
00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:28,000
seen a couple versions of that same

533
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:31,240
parachute and it would be difficult if

534
00:23:35,970 --> 00:23:33,130
you did not know how to put it on it

535
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:35,980
wouldn't be something that without any

536
00:23:40,409 --> 00:23:37,570
training or experience you're just very

537
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:40,419
comfortably put on and are good to go

538
00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:42,130
right now very

539
00:23:47,730 --> 00:23:45,220
to ative and let's talk about the bomb

540
00:23:50,190 --> 00:23:47,740
because this is a big aspect of it and

541
00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:50,200
also kind of speaks to his character and

542
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:52,390
if he was willing to hurt people or not

543
00:23:57,570 --> 00:23:54,970
but what do a lot of your guests seem to

544
00:24:00,900 --> 00:23:57,580
think when it comes to it being real or

545
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:00,910
not I'm thinking not I'm thinking not as

546
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:03,250
well and I believe everyone I've

547
00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:05,170
interviewed has said that the bomb

548
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:09,550
wasn't real except for the Foreman's who

549
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:13,570
say that it was barb Dayton who pulled

550
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:14,170
it off

551
00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:16,450
she told them that the bomb was real

552
00:24:22,110 --> 00:24:18,100
because quote I don't do anything

553
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:22,120
half-assed right that's one of several

554
00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:25,930
people who's tried to claim that this

555
00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:29,320
was them and that's really exciting and

556
00:24:33,390 --> 00:24:31,030
I heard you on a previous podcast say

557
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:33,400
that I think that's the particular

558
00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:35,650
theory that you like most or where you

559
00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:37,560
would place your bed is that right I

560
00:24:42,750 --> 00:24:40,390
wouldn't be where I place my butt but it

561
00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:42,760
is a theory that I definitely like I

562
00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:46,360
mean DB Cooper's transgender how is that

563
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:50,230
not great right I pulled this off of

564
00:24:54,510 --> 00:24:52,450
Wikipedia because I knew Barbara Dayton

565
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:54,520
would come up but it says Dayton

566
00:24:59,130 --> 00:24:56,880
underwent gender reassignment surgery in

567
00:25:01,680 --> 00:24:59,140
1969 and adopted the name Barbara

568
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:01,690
claiming to have staged the Cooper

569
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:04,210
hijacking two years earlier disguised as

570
00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:06,850
a man to quote get back at the airline

571
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:08,830
industry and the FAA whose

572
00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:11,170
insurmountable rules and conditions had

573
00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:12,760
prevented her from becoming an airline

574
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:15,190
pilot Dayton said that the ransom money

575
00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:18,910
was hidden in a sister near Woodburn a

576
00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:22,060
suburb area of Portland but eventually

577
00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:24,700
recanted the entire story after learning

578
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:26,920
that hijacking charges could still be

579
00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:29,820
brought and the FBI apparently has never

580
00:25:35,610 --> 00:25:34,420
accomplished a died in 2002 is there

581
00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:35,620
anything more to tell people about

582
00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:37,720
Barbara Dayton and why she's such a

583
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:40,510
character Barbara date is definitely a

584
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:42,130
character one of the favorite things of

585
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:44,050
Foreman's told me about that is they

586
00:25:49,460 --> 00:25:46,210
never were able to solve the DB Cooper

587
00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:49,470
case because they were looking for a man

588
00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:52,420
yeah I mean it is compelling it's an

589
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:53,740
interesting one for sure and there's

590
00:25:58,560 --> 00:25:55,690
definitely others that I think are

591
00:26:01,620 --> 00:25:58,570
are fascinating too but I guess just to

592
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:01,630
stick with the story itself a little bit

593
00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:04,090
more let me ask you about four

594
00:26:08,790 --> 00:26:06,220
parachutes some people have suggested

595
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:08,800
and I think it would be quite smart to

596
00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:11,290
ask for four instead of just one because

597
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:13,840
they could sabotage that one or I guess

598
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:15,130
that's all they could do to it because

599
00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:16,810
there weren't really tracking devices at

600
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:18,520
the time perhaps but is that your

601
00:26:25,020 --> 00:26:20,770
working theory on why he would suggest

602
00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:25,030
for a hundred percent if he asked for

603
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:28,630
just one parachute the FBI can sabotage

604
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:32,080
that shoot and asking for multiple they

605
00:26:37,410 --> 00:26:34,810
won't because if he takes a hostage with

606
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:37,420
him now the FBI just murdered someone

607
00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:40,480
mm-hmm so asking for multiple parachutes

608
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:44,440
is really the way to go mm-hmm and in

609
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:47,650
your episode about it possibly being an

610
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:50,530
inside job your guest Robert Blevins

611
00:26:55,740 --> 00:26:52,510
brought up a compelling idea about the

612
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:55,750
bomb that maybe the sticks were rolls of

613
00:27:00,270 --> 00:26:57,970
quarters in red tape because based on

614
00:27:02,340 --> 00:27:00,280
the ambiguity of where you might land

615
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:02,350
you might need to get to a pay phone and

616
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:05,050
call your pickup guy if there was one I

617
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:08,260
mean this is 1971 yeah that is

618
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:10,570
interesting although I'm not sure why he

619
00:27:14,130 --> 00:27:11,770
would do rolls of quarters because

620
00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:14,140
they'd be really heavy that's fair I

621
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:16,300
mean I don't know if they'd be too heavy

622
00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:18,310
to handle think it's got to be something

623
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:21,220
but yeah I mean he jumped with that bomb

624
00:27:26,130 --> 00:27:24,730
so if I was planning this I would want

625
00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:26,140
it to be that heavy I've also heard

626
00:27:30,660 --> 00:27:28,630
people say they were flares and could be

627
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:30,670
used you know he could throw him out the

628
00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:33,790
plane to kind of gauge which way the

629
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:36,790
winds blowing I guess but I mean really

630
00:27:41,490 --> 00:27:39,910
we don't know he took it with him yes

631
00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:41,500
and we can't that's probably an

632
00:27:45,060 --> 00:27:43,420
indication I guess it doesn't really

633
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:45,070
indicate if it's real or not

634
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:48,130
but if it was definitely fake I would

635
00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:51,520
want to keep that to myself but I also

636
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:53,470
think if he's going to plan this so

637
00:27:58,890 --> 00:27:56,170
meticulously do you really want a real

638
00:28:00,720 --> 00:27:58,900
bomb being in the mix of all this it's

639
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:00,730
dangerous enough

640
00:28:04,109 --> 00:28:03,129
I agree I don't see a need for it to be

641
00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:04,119
a real bomb

642
00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:06,820
the pilots actually asked Florence

643
00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:08,889
Schaffner cuz he cracks the briefcase

644
00:28:13,889 --> 00:28:11,080
open and shows it to her and she said

645
00:28:15,869 --> 00:28:13,899
there were six or eight red sticks and a

646
00:28:18,629 --> 00:28:15,879
bunch of wires the pilots asked her if

647
00:28:23,070 --> 00:28:18,639
they thought in her opinion if it was a

648
00:28:25,289 --> 00:28:23,080
real bomb and she says I think so to

649
00:28:26,879 --> 00:28:25,299
them and then they immediately say well

650
00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:26,889
I guess it doesn't really matter if it's

651
00:28:31,639 --> 00:28:29,590
real or not because once you say I have

652
00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:31,649
a bomb that's all you really need to do

653
00:28:37,499 --> 00:28:35,320
you can't say prove it that's true

654
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:37,509
that's true and when it comes to the

655
00:28:42,749 --> 00:28:40,570
actual point of departure from the plane

656
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:42,759
talk to us about that a little bit

657
00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:44,590
because this of course is gonna speak to

658
00:28:51,149 --> 00:28:47,980
the search radius below where the FBI is

659
00:28:54,479 --> 00:28:51,159
looking for him but no one really sees

660
00:28:56,460 --> 00:28:54,489
him jump right no one sees him jump

661
00:28:59,340 --> 00:28:56,470
shortly after taking off from Seattle

662
00:29:02,609 --> 00:28:59,350
they're flying to refuel and Reno his

663
00:29:04,139 --> 00:29:02,619
original demand was to fly to Mexico but

664
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:04,149
the pilot said you know under the

665
00:29:08,249 --> 00:29:06,730
conditions he asked for the plane won't

666
00:29:11,369 --> 00:29:08,259
have enough fuel to make it all the way

667
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:11,379
to Mexico they briefly discussed where

668
00:29:16,619 --> 00:29:13,450
to stop for refueling and it's agreed

669
00:29:17,999 --> 00:29:16,629
upon we'll stop in Reno shortly after

670
00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:18,009
they take off he instructs the

671
00:29:22,169 --> 00:29:20,200
stewardess to go into the cockpit she

672
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:22,179
briefly showed him how to lower the rear

673
00:29:26,099 --> 00:29:24,730
air stairs and then when she goes to the

674
00:29:27,899 --> 00:29:26,109
cockpit she sees him putting on the

675
00:29:30,509 --> 00:29:27,909
parachute and that's the last anyone

676
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:30,519
ever saw of him when they were in the

677
00:29:37,109 --> 00:29:33,970
cockpit they radio back to him if he's

678
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:37,119
still there at one point he says yes and

679
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:41,200
then around 8 11 to 8 13 depending on

680
00:29:45,779 --> 00:29:42,970
which report which transcript you

681
00:29:49,409 --> 00:29:45,789
reading the pilots noticed a pressure

682
00:29:51,989 --> 00:29:49,419
bump in the cabin and it actually caused

683
00:29:54,419 --> 00:29:51,999
the pilot to need to correct the flight

684
00:29:57,479 --> 00:29:54,429
of the plane and so they made a note of

685
00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:57,489
that as a possibility that that's where

686
00:30:02,159 --> 00:29:59,470
he jumped facing it maybe the rear air

687
00:30:06,299 --> 00:30:02,169
stairs bounced back up after he jumped

688
00:30:08,129 --> 00:30:06,309
out and so they actually made a test of

689
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:08,139
this they flew the plane out over the

690
00:30:12,899 --> 00:30:10,690
ocean some time later with a 200-pound

691
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:12,909
weight on the back of the rear air

692
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:14,320
stairs with them down

693
00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:16,450
and pushed it off to see if they could

694
00:30:22,590 --> 00:30:19,750
replicate that pressure bump and it did

695
00:30:24,049 --> 00:30:22,600
so they believe that that pressure bump

696
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:24,059
was where he jumped out of the plane

697
00:30:29,999 --> 00:30:26,769
which was somewhere around Arial

698
00:30:31,789 --> 00:30:30,009
Washington yacolt Amboy area so when you

699
00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:31,799
hear people talk about the drop zone

700
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:35,380
that's what they're talking about hmm

701
00:30:39,419 --> 00:30:37,450
and it seems like he would have known

702
00:30:40,830 --> 00:30:39,429
everything that he did know about the

703
00:30:42,930 --> 00:30:40,840
plane seems like he would have also

704
00:30:45,930 --> 00:30:42,940
known that it wouldn't make it all the

705
00:30:49,529 --> 00:30:45,940
way to Mexico City or even across the

706
00:30:52,169 --> 00:30:49,539
border and all indications are that he

707
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:52,179
really had no intention of even getting

708
00:30:56,899 --> 00:30:53,919
there that was just you need to go that

709
00:30:58,110 --> 00:30:56,909
direction so I can jump out over here

710
00:31:00,779 --> 00:30:58,120
right

711
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:00,789
I believe he wanted them to fly along a

712
00:31:07,499 --> 00:31:03,970
specific path and that's why he

713
00:31:09,629 --> 00:31:07,509
mentioned Mexico and then chose Reno he

714
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:09,639
wanted them to fly a specific path not

715
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:12,250
necessarily to a specific place I mean

716
00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:14,470
he obviously planned on jumping out of

717
00:31:19,409 --> 00:31:17,080
the airplane so the end destination I

718
00:31:22,139 --> 00:31:19,419
don't really think matters mm-hmm he

719
00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:22,149
just has to be over that line yes and

720
00:31:31,289 --> 00:31:25,750
it's Victor 23 is the flight path that

721
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:31,299
plane was on hmm interesting and what

722
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:33,250
can be said about the search itself how

723
00:31:39,419 --> 00:31:37,210
long did it go on how much area did they

724
00:31:41,129 --> 00:31:39,429
cover what can we said about that and

725
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:41,139
then nothing was found not even his

726
00:31:47,310 --> 00:31:44,289
parachute nothing else on the ground no

727
00:31:50,159 --> 00:31:47,320
nothing on the ground was found you know

728
00:31:51,779 --> 00:31:50,169
the fact that he chose to do this the

729
00:31:53,730 --> 00:31:51,789
day before Thanksgiving I think is

730
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:53,740
really important yes because it gives

731
00:32:02,749 --> 00:31:57,250
him a very long weekend to get back to

732
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:02,759
his life if he had a job and also on

733
00:32:07,649 --> 00:32:05,679
holiday weekends you tend to have the

734
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:07,659
longtime employees or or your better

735
00:32:13,289 --> 00:32:10,720
employees would be on vacation so you

736
00:32:17,159 --> 00:32:13,299
kind of have the B team running things

737
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:17,169
during the holiday yes so I think his

738
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:19,330
choice to do it at that time is

739
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:22,720
important and goes to show how well

740
00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:25,809
planned this whole thing was and he

741
00:32:30,610 --> 00:32:27,500
actually had

742
00:32:33,070 --> 00:32:30,620
want to say it was over 48 hours before

743
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:33,080
there were boots on the ground searching

744
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:35,450
the area that they believe he jumped in

745
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:39,110
and then in that area the weather turns

746
00:32:43,930 --> 00:32:41,810
you get a bunch of snow out there and so

747
00:32:47,950 --> 00:32:43,940
makes searching it even more difficult

748
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:47,960
and so they didn't do a real thorough

749
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:49,760
search of the area until spring when

750
00:32:54,130 --> 00:32:51,650
they had like 200 dudes from the

751
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:54,140
National Guard just start stomping

752
00:32:59,050 --> 00:32:56,090
through the woods looking for what they

753
00:33:01,270 --> 00:32:59,060
thought would be dead body and they

754
00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:01,280
actually found a body of a teenage girl

755
00:33:09,550 --> 00:33:05,240
I believe from an unrelated case mm-hmm

756
00:33:13,870 --> 00:33:09,560
but they never found anything else man

757
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:13,880
and I guess there was a bundle of money

758
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:16,130
found her a couple bundles of money but

759
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:18,290
that was way later can you break that

760
00:33:23,470 --> 00:33:20,000
down for us it's a bit of a mystery in

761
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:23,480
itself isn't it absolutely so the only

762
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:27,410
evidence of this hijacking that's found

763
00:33:35,770 --> 00:33:32,000
afterward is in 1980 an 8 year old boy

764
00:33:38,650 --> 00:33:35,780
is camping on a riverbank with his

765
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:38,660
parents and pushes some sand aside to

766
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:41,570
make a fire pit and uncovers three

767
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:45,050
bundles of cash about 5,800 bucks and

768
00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:48,110
they take it home and try to clean it up

769
00:33:51,850 --> 00:33:49,670
the money's deteriorated it had rubber

770
00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:51,860
bands on it when they found it but they

771
00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:55,460
quickly crumbled and they figured out

772
00:33:59,250 --> 00:33:57,110
you know it's probably the DD Cooper

773
00:34:01,900 --> 00:33:59,260
money they get ahold of the FBI the FBI

774
00:34:04,390 --> 00:34:01,910
takes it it is DB Cooper money they'd

775
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:04,400
basically dig up that whole beachside

776
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:07,570
area at inna bar on the Columbia and

777
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:11,450
didn't find anything else but how the

778
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:13,790
money got there the condition it was in

779
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:16,330
that has only added more questions

780
00:34:23,980 --> 00:34:20,480
nobody has a good explanation for how

781
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:23,990
that money got there it is interesting

782
00:34:28,750 --> 00:34:26,210
because the first thought is like well

783
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:28,760
he dropped some and it floated down and

784
00:34:33,129 --> 00:34:30,169
landed on the shore what's so difficult

785
00:34:37,149 --> 00:34:33,139
about that but it doesn't seem like that

786
00:34:39,490 --> 00:34:37,159
would even be possible right right yeah

787
00:34:41,050 --> 00:34:39,500
I interviewed this guy Tom Kay

788
00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:41,060
and he did a bunch of different

789
00:34:43,869 --> 00:34:42,889
experiments trying to figure out how the

790
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:43,879
money got there

791
00:34:50,169 --> 00:34:46,010
trying to figure out how long rubber

792
00:34:53,379 --> 00:34:50,179
bands last outdoors he even went so far

793
00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:53,389
as to figure out the company that was

794
00:34:57,599 --> 00:34:55,730
producing the rubber bands for banks on

795
00:35:00,460 --> 00:34:57,609
the west coast at that time and

796
00:35:03,730 --> 00:35:00,470
basically got the recipe from them on

797
00:35:07,210 --> 00:35:03,740
what was the chemical makeup of the

798
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:07,220
rubber bands at that time and duplicated

799
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:08,810
them and ran a bunch of experiments to

800
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:11,590
see how they would deteriorate outdoors

801
00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:16,160
he also put a bunch of bundles of ones

802
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:19,670
with his business card in him and threw

803
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:21,470
him in a bunch of different watersheds

804
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:23,510
to see if they would float different

805
00:35:28,210 --> 00:35:26,450
directions and actually got a call from

806
00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:28,220
someone who found one of those bundles

807
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:30,470
and it didn't make it very far I want to

808
00:35:34,330 --> 00:35:32,330
say it made it about a mile from where

809
00:35:40,450 --> 00:35:34,340
he put that money in the first place and

810
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:40,460
Tina bar is about 10 or 15 miles west of

811
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:43,250
where the plane was even if you assume

812
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:46,010
it was the farthest west in that Victor

813
00:35:52,510 --> 00:35:50,510
23 flight path so there isn't a good

814
00:35:54,370 --> 00:35:52,520
explanation for how it got there it's

815
00:35:56,050 --> 00:35:54,380
like he dropped it in the air and it

816
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:56,060
would land there there isn't an

817
00:36:00,430 --> 00:35:57,770
explanation for it being dropped in the

818
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:00,440
water I've heard people say that you

819
00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:02,330
know maybe he jumped into Columbia and

820
00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:05,990
the money sank to the bottom and then a

821
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:08,240
dredge scooped it up and dumped it on

822
00:36:13,150 --> 00:36:11,119
there I mean there just is not a good

823
00:36:17,829 --> 00:36:13,160
explanation for how that money got there

824
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:17,839
other than a plant really about you know

825
00:36:23,530 --> 00:36:20,810
probably 90 days before it was found

826
00:36:25,540 --> 00:36:23,540
there right that's so nuts

827
00:36:28,690 --> 00:36:25,550
because I guess nine years it's just

828
00:36:32,050 --> 00:36:28,700
completely impossible that that money

829
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:32,060
could actually be preserved outside in

830
00:36:42,980 --> 00:36:39,830
yeah it is crazy it's quite a mystery

831
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:42,990
and I mean he really is a legend he has

832
00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:47,910
this real kind of antihero status I mean

833
00:36:53,630 --> 00:36:50,760
he brought a supposed bomb on a plane

834
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:53,640
and hijacked it technically you would

835
00:36:58,850 --> 00:36:55,140
think you know he put a lot of people in

836
00:37:00,590 --> 00:36:58,860
danger why this antihero status do you

837
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:00,600
think it's just because he got away is

838
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:03,090
it just kind of this stick it to the man

839
00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:04,650
sort of thing what are your thoughts on

840
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:07,980
just the aura of DB Cooper and how he's

841
00:37:14,210 --> 00:37:11,370
perceived I think it's all of that and

842
00:37:17,980 --> 00:37:14,220
kind of in the Portland in the Seattle

843
00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:17,990
area they kind of have a very liberal

844
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:20,280
stick it to the man kind of an attitude

845
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:23,010
and no one was hurt doing this I think

846
00:37:27,140 --> 00:37:24,810
if he would have you know pushed a

847
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:27,150
stewardess out of the plane and she died

848
00:37:33,410 --> 00:37:29,010
people would be talking about this in a

849
00:37:36,350 --> 00:37:33,420
very different way but no one was hurt

850
00:37:40,370 --> 00:37:36,360
so you can kind of root for him the

851
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:40,380
money wasn't sure doesn't even like he

852
00:37:43,850 --> 00:37:42,450
robbed the airline of everything and

853
00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:43,860
they went out of business because of

854
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:45,150
this mm-hmm

855
00:37:49,370 --> 00:37:47,730
you know he got $200,000 from the

856
00:37:51,620 --> 00:37:49,380
airline that was insured I want to say

857
00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:51,630
they recuperated 80% of that from the

858
00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:55,950
insurance company hmm so people root for

859
00:38:00,800 --> 00:37:58,290
him and he's cool he's drinking and

860
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:00,810
smoking in a suit wearing sunglasses and

861
00:38:05,420 --> 00:38:03,290
then jumps out of the plane like that

862
00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:05,430
right and I guess just out of my own

863
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:07,590
curiosity do we know what brand of

864
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:11,010
bourbon he was drinking we don't but we

865
00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:13,290
know he was smoking Raliegh cigarettes

866
00:38:18,410 --> 00:38:16,800
ah right on man if I had a bourbon

867
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:18,420
company I'd definitely be making ads

868
00:38:23,990 --> 00:38:20,880
that it was me it was my stuff you know

869
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:24,000
only only the best for DB Cooper I don't

870
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:25,680
know about the best he was probably just

871
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:29,310
well bourbon on the airline right right

872
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:29,690
right

873
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:33,780
well in terms of the money did he demand

874
00:38:38,420 --> 00:38:37,110
that the airline meet the ransom I mean

875
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,430
obviously when someone hijacked

876
00:38:43,070 --> 00:38:40,800
something and asked for $200,000 there's

877
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:43,080
a lot of moving parts and a lot of

878
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:45,810
people involved some might think the

879
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:47,910
money came from the government was it

880
00:38:50,660 --> 00:38:50,370
because it was just their airplane it's

881
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:50,670
just him

882
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:53,040
weird where did all that money come from

883
00:38:59,360 --> 00:38:55,710
and was it specifically requested from

884
00:39:01,360 --> 00:38:59,370
him to be a hit to the airline well

885
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:01,370
that's interesting because there was a

886
00:39:07,070 --> 00:39:04,640
lot of hijacking going on at the time

887
00:39:10,070 --> 00:39:07,080
mostly for political reasons you know

888
00:39:13,130 --> 00:39:10,080
like fly me to Cuba but this was the

889
00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:13,140
first one where he demanded a ransom but

890
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:16,860
the airline in Seattle had two hundred

891
00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:20,730
and fifty thousand dollars set aside for

892
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:25,800
such an emergency which is seemed odd to

893
00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:29,010
me that they did that you know did he

894
00:39:34,460 --> 00:39:32,190
know about that and is that why he asked

895
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:34,470
for two hundred thousand because he knew

896
00:39:39,940 --> 00:39:36,890
they already had that money on hand huh

897
00:39:41,570 --> 00:39:39,950
well that speaks to the inside job

898
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:41,580
hypothesis I don't know how many

899
00:39:47,150 --> 00:39:44,910
different suspects can be folded under

900
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:47,160
that umbrella but that detail does

901
00:39:53,630 --> 00:39:50,490
suggest a little maneuvering from behind

902
00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:53,640
the curtain yeah and then you know the

903
00:39:57,590 --> 00:39:55,440
fact that he knew that the rear air

904
00:40:02,440 --> 00:39:57,600
shares of the plane could be lowered the

905
00:40:05,410 --> 00:40:02,450
CIA was doing tests in Vietnam

906
00:40:08,049 --> 00:40:05,420
dropping cargo and potentially soldiers

907
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:08,059
out of the back of 727s because it

908
00:40:13,059 --> 00:40:11,359
looked like a commercial plane so they

909
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:13,069
could fly that and drop soldiers and

910
00:40:19,390 --> 00:40:15,650
gear out of the back of it was he

911
00:40:21,549 --> 00:40:19,400
involved in that was he doing something

912
00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:21,559
with that right I have heard that

913
00:40:29,289 --> 00:40:25,609
suggestion that he was CIA and that the

914
00:40:31,089 --> 00:40:29,299
FBI didn't really investigate as well as

915
00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:31,099
they could have or they turned a blind

916
00:40:36,789 --> 00:40:34,190
eye or they realized that it was bumping

917
00:40:39,370 --> 00:40:36,799
up against the other agency and just

918
00:40:40,990 --> 00:40:39,380
backed off there are those claims out

919
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:41,000
there do you think there's any merit to

920
00:40:48,370 --> 00:40:45,170
those it's definitely plausible I mean I

921
00:40:51,490 --> 00:40:48,380
just had this guy on natla folk who

922
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:51,500
believes it was eat Howard hunt that

923
00:40:56,740 --> 00:40:55,010
pulled it off and he does look very

924
00:40:58,359 --> 00:40:56,750
similar to the first sketch and there's

925
00:41:00,220 --> 00:40:58,369
that where he's testifying in the

926
00:41:03,250 --> 00:41:00,230
Watergate hearings he's wearing

927
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:03,260
sunglasses if you just google E Howard

928
00:41:08,349 --> 00:41:05,359
hunt one of the first images that comes

929
00:41:09,839 --> 00:41:08,359
up is him in sunglasses testifying on

930
00:41:17,370 --> 00:41:09,849
that

931
00:41:20,339 --> 00:41:17,380
guy has a bunch of reasons why he thinks

932
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:20,349
it's he Howard hunt but he definitely

933
00:41:25,049 --> 00:41:22,150
had some knowledge he knew more about

934
00:41:27,390 --> 00:41:25,059
the plane and the pilots did right right

935
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:27,400
and there wasn't exactly Google at the

936
00:41:34,170 --> 00:41:31,599
time mm-hmm-hmm it is so true when you

937
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:34,180
put it back in the context of 1971

938
00:41:40,859 --> 00:41:37,209
there's very limited ways you could have

939
00:41:43,499 --> 00:41:40,869
the information about the plane the

940
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:43,509
information about the parachute also

941
00:41:47,549 --> 00:41:46,089
knowing or maybe that's coincidence that

942
00:41:50,430 --> 00:41:47,559
he asked for the right amount of money

943
00:41:53,849 --> 00:41:50,440
but you got to add that to the pile his

944
00:41:55,529 --> 00:41:53,859
calmness because you'd have to have all

945
00:41:58,489 --> 00:41:55,539
this up in your head still I mean this

946
00:42:03,660 --> 00:41:58,499
speaks to a long time a planning

947
00:42:06,479 --> 00:42:03,670
absolutely let me ask you if the FBI has

948
00:42:08,459 --> 00:42:06,489
done anything that you consider sketchy

949
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:08,469
in this overall investigation you know

950
00:42:11,759 --> 00:42:10,089
like I mentioned some researchers think

951
00:42:13,769 --> 00:42:11,769
they turned a blind eye or could have

952
00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:13,779
done more have they always been

953
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:16,180
forthright in your opinion as you've

954
00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:18,260
looked at this material

955
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:20,390
it's interesting I mean there isn't much

956
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:22,910
known about him but the FBI says they

957
00:42:28,569 --> 00:42:26,089
investigated thousands of people

958
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:28,579
involved in this and you know the sport

959
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:32,210
parachuting community in 1971 wasn't

960
00:42:36,370 --> 00:42:33,770
very big there wasn't a ton of people

961
00:42:38,260 --> 00:42:36,380
doing that so they were just going to

962
00:42:41,170 --> 00:42:38,270
all these different sport parachuting

963
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:41,180
clubs investigating those guys asking if

964
00:42:46,780 --> 00:42:43,490
they thought it could be anyone they

965
00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:46,790
knew they got hundreds made thousands of

966
00:42:52,329 --> 00:42:49,369
leads because the sketch is generic

967
00:42:54,190 --> 00:42:52,339
looking and it could be oh you know that

968
00:42:56,890 --> 00:42:54,200
kind of looks like my uncle and my uncle

969
00:42:59,920 --> 00:42:56,900
was parachuting in the military in World

970
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:59,930
War two so they just didn't have that

971
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:01,760
much to go on but one of my favorite

972
00:43:10,030 --> 00:43:06,079
things the FBI did was around 2007 I

973
00:43:13,420 --> 00:43:10,040
believe there was a online forum called

974
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:13,430
the drop zone which was a skydiving

975
00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:16,640
forum and they started a thread about DB

976
00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:21,470
Cooper and that really was the place to

977
00:43:26,380 --> 00:43:24,440
go for the DB Cooper investigation you

978
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:26,390
know as a fan or as an amateur

979
00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:29,359
investigator an FBI agent by the name of

980
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:32,740
Larry Carr went on there under the name

981
00:43:41,470 --> 00:43:38,770
secret like the letter c KR ET and

982
00:43:44,290 --> 00:43:41,480
started posting on there and asking

983
00:43:46,809 --> 00:43:44,300
people things and then started providing

984
00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:46,819
information that obviously only the FBI

985
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:48,540
would have

986
00:43:53,090 --> 00:43:51,060
and I just think that's wild I mean

987
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:53,100
that's a crazy approach to an

988
00:43:58,490 --> 00:43:55,170
investigation and maybe something that

989
00:44:02,000 --> 00:43:58,500
you can only do you know after 35 years

990
00:44:03,740 --> 00:44:02,010
with no real evidence or no leads I mean

991
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:03,750
I can't think of another example where

992
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:05,810
the FBI has done that

993
00:44:13,330 --> 00:44:11,170
hmm yeah and I had read that there are

994
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:13,340
files that have been released recently

995
00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:14,930
you kind of mentioned that in the

996
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:17,180
beginning I don't know what would be

997
00:44:21,790 --> 00:44:19,280
released but why are they releasing

998
00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:21,800
files and have they added any real

999
00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:25,100
context they're releasing files because

1000
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:28,190
of a couple of lawsuits from Tom Colbert

1001
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:32,270
I believe Freedom of Information Act and

1002
00:44:37,810 --> 00:44:34,010
so they've just been dumping these

1003
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:37,820
batches of files and you can go through

1004
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:40,490
them about their investigation some

1005
00:44:45,490 --> 00:44:43,370
notes but I don't know if you've ever

1006
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:45,500
gone through stuff like that but it's

1007
00:44:50,860 --> 00:44:49,040
incredibly boring so much is redacted

1008
00:44:53,110 --> 00:44:50,870
sometimes you don't know what you're

1009
00:44:56,620 --> 00:44:53,120
reading or if it's important you can

1010
00:44:58,270 --> 00:44:56,630
read conflicting reports because they're

1011
00:44:59,800 --> 00:44:58,280
interviewing different people but you

1012
00:45:03,040 --> 00:44:59,810
don't know who they're interviewing

1013
00:45:04,450 --> 00:45:03,050
because that's redacted so there are a

1014
00:45:06,970 --> 00:45:04,460
couple people that are really going

1015
00:45:10,660 --> 00:45:06,980
through them one in particular the guy

1016
00:45:12,580 --> 00:45:10,670
goes by her name fly jack has been going

1017
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:12,590
through them and doing a great job kind

1018
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:15,410
of sourcing out what is valuable and

1019
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:17,450
what's not

1020
00:45:25,870 --> 00:45:20,569
but I mean each time it's like 10,000

1021
00:45:27,549 --> 00:45:25,880
pages man and let me ask you having read

1022
00:45:30,690 --> 00:45:27,559
so many books do you have a particular

1023
00:45:35,140 --> 00:45:30,700
favorite book on the subject

1024
00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:35,150
definitely Bruce Smith's DB Cooper and

1025
00:45:42,549 --> 00:45:40,040
the FBI is a great great book it talks

1026
00:45:45,609 --> 00:45:42,559
about multiple suspects about the

1027
00:45:48,339 --> 00:45:45,619
investigation about things that he

1028
00:45:51,609 --> 00:45:48,349
thinks the FBI did poorly in the

1029
00:45:54,549 --> 00:45:51,619
investigation it's a great book Marty

1030
00:45:57,130 --> 00:45:54,559
Andrade's book finding DB Cooper that is

1031
00:45:59,049 --> 00:45:57,140
also a great book it talks about like I

1032
00:46:02,950 --> 00:45:59,059
had mentioned earlier about the jump

1033
00:46:04,930 --> 00:46:02,960
being survivable now the folks book I

1034
00:46:07,359 --> 00:46:04,940
actually like about eat Howard hunt

1035
00:46:09,940 --> 00:46:07,369
being DB Cooper that's the most recent

1036
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:09,950
one so that one talks about some of the

1037
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:12,970
FBI files and has him in his book and

1038
00:46:17,289 --> 00:46:16,490
just the fact that it's more recent

1039
00:46:21,730 --> 00:46:17,299
makes it good

1040
00:46:23,890 --> 00:46:21,740
I mean Max Gunther's book about DB

1041
00:46:26,260 --> 00:46:23,900
Cooper is also good although a lot of

1042
00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:26,270
people believe it's fiction mmm

1043
00:46:31,089 --> 00:46:29,390
interesting yeah you're a DB Cooper

1044
00:46:35,530 --> 00:46:31,099
sponge man you've soaked it all up and

1045
00:46:38,170 --> 00:46:35,540
in terms of technical analysis of things

1046
00:46:42,099 --> 00:46:38,180
that are possible now that weren't back

1047
00:46:43,870 --> 00:46:42,109
then has using modern technology yielded

1048
00:46:46,750 --> 00:46:43,880
any information I know there's not a lot

1049
00:46:50,650 --> 00:46:46,760
of stuff to analyze but I believe Tom K

1050
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:50,660
did some work on the tie right yeah

1051
00:46:54,099 --> 00:46:51,650
that's interesting

1052
00:46:58,359 --> 00:46:54,109
that agent Larry Carr who got on the

1053
00:47:01,059 --> 00:46:58,369
forum he actually opened it up to Tom K

1054
00:47:05,890 --> 00:47:01,069
and Tom K is not involved with the FBI

1055
00:47:08,410 --> 00:47:05,900
he's a paleontologist and owns a bunch

1056
00:47:11,500 --> 00:47:08,420
of other businesses but

1057
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:11,510
he actually got access to the FBI files

1058
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:13,910
and their evidence and the only real

1059
00:47:17,829 --> 00:47:15,170
evidence they had that he could examine

1060
00:47:21,069 --> 00:47:17,839
real closely was the tie that was left

1061
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:21,079
on the plane so he got it under an

1062
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:23,690
electron microscope and found a bunch of

1063
00:47:30,190 --> 00:47:26,960
rare earth minerals on the tie he found

1064
00:47:34,329 --> 00:47:30,200
a pure titanium on there and then a

1065
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:34,339
bunch of other substances from like

1066
00:47:38,859 --> 00:47:37,010
cathode ray tubes things that your

1067
00:47:41,410 --> 00:47:38,869
average dude wouldn't have on his tie

1068
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:41,420
which is another thing that just kind of

1069
00:47:49,390 --> 00:47:46,490
adds more mystery to this right is there

1070
00:47:51,250 --> 00:47:49,400
any possible explanation for that does

1071
00:47:52,990 --> 00:47:51,260
it give us a clue to anything is there a

1072
00:47:54,670 --> 00:47:53,000
certain kind of person who would wear a

1073
00:47:57,130 --> 00:47:54,680
tie and be working with that kind of

1074
00:48:00,130 --> 00:47:57,140
stuff it does I mean there were only a

1075
00:48:02,650 --> 00:48:00,140
handful of places in 1971 that we're

1076
00:48:05,950 --> 00:48:02,660
working with pure titanium would have

1077
00:48:07,930 --> 00:48:05,960
been chemical companies were doing it at

1078
00:48:10,539 --> 00:48:07,940
the time some people have said you know

1079
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:10,549
going supersonic transport although

1080
00:48:14,769 --> 00:48:11,690
others said it would have been a

1081
00:48:17,950 --> 00:48:14,779
titanium alloy that was used there's a

1082
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:17,960
company Tektronix in Portland that was

1083
00:48:26,109 --> 00:48:21,710
using some of that and making cathode

1084
00:48:27,940 --> 00:48:26,119
ray tubes so it does narrow it down if

1085
00:48:31,990 --> 00:48:27,950
you believe that the evidence on the tie

1086
00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:32,000
is critical to who DB Cooper was you

1087
00:48:36,730 --> 00:48:34,730
know and some suspect peddlers say that

1088
00:48:39,609 --> 00:48:36,740
that's important and some say that it's

1089
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:39,619
not yeah it is hard to say with so much

1090
00:48:45,940 --> 00:48:42,970
time passing you know is that analysis

1091
00:48:49,509 --> 00:48:45,950
accurate was this tide just tossed on

1092
00:48:51,609 --> 00:48:49,519
some other evidence and all days of not

1093
00:48:54,339 --> 00:48:51,619
really paying that much attention to

1094
00:48:55,569 --> 00:48:54,349
this stuff it is hard to say yeah

1095
00:48:58,029 --> 00:48:55,579
absolutely

1096
00:49:01,089 --> 00:48:58,039
I mean we're coming up on 50 years that

1097
00:49:03,220 --> 00:49:01,099
this happened and there are still tons

1098
00:49:05,620 --> 00:49:03,230
of people who are trying to solve this

1099
00:49:09,279 --> 00:49:05,630
50 years later you know many of the

1100
00:49:10,620 --> 00:49:09,289
principal people now are dead yes and I

1101
00:49:13,390 --> 00:49:10,630
have to ask about the more

1102
00:49:15,579 --> 00:49:13,400
conspiratorial conclusions people have

1103
00:49:17,769 --> 00:49:15,589
come to some wilder than others but I've

1104
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:17,779
heard it suggested that he was an

1105
00:49:21,820 --> 00:49:20,690
MKULTRA style victim that's pretty wild

1106
00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:21,830
what sort of

1107
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:24,110
have you heard in that regard what are

1108
00:49:30,070 --> 00:49:28,130
some of the most epic claims well I

1109
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:30,080
think one of the most epic claims is it

1110
00:49:35,260 --> 00:49:31,760
was a Howard hunt that pulled it off

1111
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:35,270
bear I mean he was working for the CIA

1112
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:37,370
on and off he was kind of in trouble

1113
00:49:42,610 --> 00:49:40,400
with the law on and off got in trouble

1114
00:49:44,890 --> 00:49:42,620
with Watergate he was working for Nixon

1115
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:44,900
Nath's theory is that he did it outside

1116
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:49,520
of government instruction but knew that

1117
00:49:54,490 --> 00:49:51,290
the government would have his back

1118
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:54,500
because he ultimately accomplished their

1119
00:50:05,350 --> 00:49:57,770
goal in changing airline security by

1120
00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:05,360
doing that mm-hmm Wow yeah I mean to be

1121
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:09,920
so calm there almost is this air of well

1122
00:50:15,540 --> 00:50:12,890
even if I get caught I mean come on it's

1123
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:15,550
got that kind of tone to his attitude I

1124
00:50:21,490 --> 00:50:18,530
agree and you know Bruce Smith that I've

1125
00:50:23,260 --> 00:50:21,500
talked to a lot about this he believes

1126
00:50:26,290 --> 00:50:23,270
you know it was Special Forces and

1127
00:50:30,250 --> 00:50:26,300
whether it was a guy in Special Forces

1128
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:30,260
doing it because he was instructed to or

1129
00:50:36,010 --> 00:50:34,010
because he had this skillset and wanted

1130
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,020
to use it for his own financial gain of

1131
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:38,720
course he's not sure but I think there's

1132
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:40,850
a lot of validity in that I mean you're

1133
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:43,490
talking about an insane amount of

1134
00:50:50,830 --> 00:50:47,570
planning to be able to do this inside

1135
00:50:53,550 --> 00:50:50,840
information and then the ability to

1136
00:50:58,560 --> 00:50:53,560
execute that plan

1137
00:51:01,410 --> 00:50:58,570
not every 45 year-old guy can do can do

1138
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:01,420
that and the fact that he remains calm

1139
00:51:06,180 --> 00:51:03,370
says to me that he's a guy who has done

1140
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:06,190
dangerous things before this isn't his

1141
00:51:13,740 --> 00:51:10,930
first rodeo absolutely and in terms of

1142
00:51:15,980 --> 00:51:13,750
the securities and the protocols that

1143
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:15,990
did change what can be said about that

1144
00:51:20,670 --> 00:51:18,970
well when was the last time you went to

1145
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:20,680
the airport I mean now it's crazy

1146
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:24,610
oh yeah in 1971 he's able to get onto

1147
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:28,090
the plane without showing ID with a

1148
00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:31,810
briefcase bomb and it's no problem

1149
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:33,960
yeah all he had to do was say his name

1150
00:51:39,690 --> 00:51:37,570
Dan Cooper and then the agent writes

1151
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:39,700
that on the ticket and then he walks on

1152
00:51:45,450 --> 00:51:42,970
to an airplane a few years later they

1153
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:45,460
have metal detectors he started looking

1154
00:51:52,530 --> 00:51:49,870
in bags and they actually added two 727s

1155
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:52,540
after this a device called the Cooper

1156
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:55,690
vein named after Dan Cooper that

1157
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:57,760
prevents the rear air stairs from being

1158
00:52:04,370 --> 00:51:59,760
opened in flight

1159
00:52:06,410 --> 00:52:04,380
hmm Wow yeah obviously airports are

1160
00:52:08,510 --> 00:52:06,420
completely different now it feels like

1161
00:52:12,140 --> 00:52:08,520
we're being processed for prison

1162
00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:12,150
sometimes and it is a curious thing

1163
00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:13,980
obviously you might not share the

1164
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:16,760
extreme views that I sometimes have but

1165
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:21,240
there are a lot of examples where a case

1166
00:52:27,580 --> 00:52:23,690
can be made that something that changed

1167
00:52:30,410 --> 00:52:27,590
protocols to make things more like

1168
00:52:33,620 --> 00:52:30,420
checkpoints or more militarized or

1169
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:33,630
reduce people's freedoms and rights a

1170
00:52:40,550 --> 00:52:36,510
lot of times those catalysts have

1171
00:52:44,450 --> 00:52:40,560
something sketchy about them or possibly

1172
00:52:47,859 --> 00:52:44,460
could definitely I don't think it's

1173
00:52:52,190 --> 00:52:47,869
outside the realm of possibility that

1174
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:52,200
the CIA or another agency pulled this

1175
00:52:58,849 --> 00:52:55,440
off I'm with you I mean there's a lot

1176
00:53:01,070 --> 00:52:58,859
going on there and the fact that this

1177
00:53:05,390 --> 00:53:01,080
was never solved I think kind of adds to

1178
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:05,400
that conspiratorial angle on this see

1179
00:53:12,349 --> 00:53:07,650
people it's a better fit for us than you

1180
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:12,359
realized and kind of interesting similar

1181
00:53:17,330 --> 00:53:14,160
to Roswell New Mexico there is a

1182
00:53:20,510 --> 00:53:17,340
subculture in Ariel Washington of

1183
00:53:22,210 --> 00:53:20,520
celebrating these events even today

1184
00:53:24,980 --> 00:53:22,220
isn't there

1185
00:53:28,099 --> 00:53:24,990
unfortunately that stopped two or three

1186
00:53:30,170 --> 00:53:28,109
years ago now so there was DB cooper

1187
00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:30,180
days that was held in Ariel Washington

1188
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:33,840
at the areal store and it's in the

1189
00:53:40,430 --> 00:53:37,650
middle of nowhere I mean you get off the

1190
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:40,440
main highway and then drive for 45

1191
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:43,710
minutes into the woods to get to I don't

1192
00:53:48,859 --> 00:53:47,040
even want to say the town of Ariel the

1193
00:53:51,020 --> 00:53:48,869
I mean diarrheal store is the town

1194
00:53:54,140 --> 00:53:51,030
there's just that one building there hmm

1195
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:54,150
and there would be a wild party there

1196
00:53:59,480 --> 00:53:56,960
every year the Friday after Thanksgiving

1197
00:54:01,599 --> 00:53:59,490
where there would be you know three or

1198
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:01,609
four hundred people at this bar cars

1199
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:05,850
parked on the street for two miles and

1200
00:54:10,550 --> 00:54:08,400
it was a great time and the whole

1201
00:54:14,030 --> 00:54:10,560
building is basically dedicated to DB

1202
00:54:18,620 --> 00:54:14,040
Cooper but unfortunately when the owner

1203
00:54:21,530 --> 00:54:18,630
Donna Elliot passed away the county took

1204
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:21,540
away the business licenses from them

1205
00:54:27,230 --> 00:54:23,970
because there that building isn't up to

1206
00:54:27,620 --> 00:54:27,240
any sort of health or safety codes at

1207
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:27,630
all

1208
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:29,850
so they said you know if you want to run

1209
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:31,380
this as a business you have to meet

1210
00:54:35,810 --> 00:54:33,330
current health and safety standards now

1211
00:54:37,940 --> 00:54:35,820
and so her son who took it over I mean

1212
00:54:40,190 --> 00:54:37,950
that would just be an absolute daunting

1213
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:40,200
task I mean the building's pretty much

1214
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:43,410
falling down and the kitchen that bar

1215
00:54:48,290 --> 00:54:45,690
ran was just like the kitchen in your

1216
00:54:54,170 --> 00:54:48,300
home it was not a commercial kitchen at

1217
00:54:57,050 --> 00:54:54,180
all nah man well yeah so Eric Ulis has

1218
00:55:00,349 --> 00:54:57,060
actually started a DB cooper con to

1219
00:55:02,810 --> 00:55:00,359
replace that DB cooper days celebration

1220
00:55:05,780 --> 00:55:02,820
that was in Ariel yes and that was

1221
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:05,790
obviously my closing question was to get

1222
00:55:10,070 --> 00:55:07,890
into that because it is coming up fast

1223
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:10,080
I guess tell the people what to expect

1224
00:55:14,930 --> 00:55:12,090
now that they're all jazzed up why go to

1225
00:55:18,980 --> 00:55:14,940
Cooper Conn because it's going to be a

1226
00:55:22,210 --> 00:55:18,990
solid two days of DB cooper you have the

1227
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:22,220
convention at the Higgins theater and

1228
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:24,690
it's going to be eight hours I'm the

1229
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:27,090
opening speaker Marty Andrade will be

1230
00:55:30,020 --> 00:55:29,520
there also many of the names I've had on

1231
00:55:32,420 --> 00:55:30,030
the show

1232
00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:32,430
Eric Ulis Bill Rollins will be there

1233
00:55:37,609 --> 00:55:35,460
Bruce Smith all the names in the DB

1234
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:37,619
cooper community will be there so if

1235
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:39,090
you're interested in this here in the

1236
00:55:46,460 --> 00:55:42,720
Portland area head on outcomes yes yes I

1237
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:46,470
think even the daughter of the the pilot

1238
00:55:50,420 --> 00:55:48,210
or somebody who is involved in this

1239
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:50,430
somehow is coming if that's not a

1240
00:55:54,380 --> 00:55:51,680
mistake on my part

1241
00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:54,390
yes she is going to be coming out and

1242
00:56:00,010 --> 00:55:56,460
speaking about her father's experience

1243
00:56:03,370 --> 00:56:00,020
in this her father was the pilot

1244
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:03,380
captain co-captain right on have you

1245
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,570
ever heard her talk about her

1246
00:56:09,130 --> 00:56:07,280
conversations with her own father I

1247
00:56:12,010 --> 00:56:09,140
guess she was a teenager when this

1248
00:56:14,410 --> 00:56:12,020
happened has she spoken out before about

1249
00:56:17,170 --> 00:56:14,420
memories from her father or details that

1250
00:56:18,970 --> 00:56:17,180
he's told her I've actually never heard

1251
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:18,980
her speak before hmm

1252
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:22,370
so I'm excited about that right on

1253
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:24,770
and I've heard there's other interesting

1254
00:56:30,730 --> 00:56:27,530
things going on like an escape room and

1255
00:56:33,970 --> 00:56:30,740
I guess some kind of road tour you know

1256
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:33,980
like when you go down to Texas by the

1257
00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:36,290
Book Depository everybody wants to get

1258
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:38,240
up in that window whereas well it was

1259
00:56:41,890 --> 00:56:40,160
and everyone wants to walk the path of

1260
00:56:45,370 --> 00:56:41,900
the motorcade and there's something

1261
00:56:47,620 --> 00:56:45,380
similar happening here right absolutely

1262
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:47,630
so it's three day event there's going to

1263
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:50,810
be a beat and greet at a brew pub on

1264
00:56:56,020 --> 00:56:53,330
Friday the 22nd and Saturday all day you

1265
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:56,030
have the conference and then on Sunday

1266
00:56:59,920 --> 00:56:57,890
there's a couple other DB Cooper events

1267
00:57:02,950 --> 00:56:59,930
there's going to be a boat tour - Tina

1268
00:57:05,230 --> 00:57:02,960
bar the DB Cooper escape room and then

1269
00:57:08,350 --> 00:57:05,240
like he mentioned a road tour with Bruce

1270
00:57:11,260 --> 00:57:08,360
Smith that kind of follows along the

1271
00:57:14,380 --> 00:57:11,270
flight path and takes you into that drop

1272
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:14,390
zone area so you can see where DB Cooper

1273
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:15,890
would have jumped out of the plane and

1274
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:19,310
see the aerial store it's so this

1275
00:57:23,980 --> 00:57:21,770
exciting you tend to be Cooper even if

1276
00:57:26,980 --> 00:57:23,990
you're not it's cool and and Bruce Smith

1277
00:57:30,130 --> 00:57:26,990
is an amazing person an amazing person

1278
00:57:32,770 --> 00:57:30,140
to talk to so definitely worth it cool

1279
00:57:33,790 --> 00:57:32,780
cool well if I was up in the Pacific

1280
00:57:35,650 --> 00:57:33,800
Northwest

1281
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:35,660
I would definitely show up but I hope

1282
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:37,490
this draws a little more attention to

1283
00:57:43,630 --> 00:57:41,810
the con and it is a success I hope so I

1284
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:43,640
hope it's not just me speaking to the

1285
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:45,290
people I'm already talking to you about

1286
00:57:51,850 --> 00:57:48,410
DB Kevin no I'm sure there's gonna be

1287
00:57:53,830 --> 00:57:51,860
some new faces but very cool and as for

1288
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:53,840
the podcast it's definitely well done

1289
00:57:58,090 --> 00:57:56,000
anything else to add there how long do

1290
00:58:00,940 --> 00:57:58,100
you plan on doing it is the list of

1291
00:58:03,820 --> 00:58:00,950
suspects and researchers more vast than

1292
00:58:06,310 --> 00:58:03,830
I might think definitely when I had

1293
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:06,320
started this project I told myself at

1294
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:07,730
the end of this year I was going to be

1295
00:58:11,830 --> 00:58:10,730
all done in the DB Cooper game but I was

1296
00:58:14,370 --> 00:58:11,840
meeting up with Russell Cole

1297
00:58:18,310 --> 00:58:14,380
it's my show puts it all together for me

1298
00:58:20,050 --> 00:58:18,320
and there's just a lot more to cover and

1299
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:20,060
a lot more to do so we're gonna continue

1300
00:58:24,190 --> 00:58:23,090
to do the show into next year and you

1301
00:58:26,860 --> 00:58:24,200
know like you've mentioned we already

1302
00:58:29,890 --> 00:58:26,870
have 30 hours of content on DB cooper

1303
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:29,900
out already and many more suspects and

1304
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:32,330
many other stories to cover so we're

1305
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:34,490
gonna continue to do the show right on

1306
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:38,000
either maybe any other stories or

1307
00:58:44,290 --> 00:58:41,210
mysteries that you plan on turning your

1308
00:58:46,450 --> 00:58:44,300
attention to next not that I can think

1309
00:58:48,430 --> 00:58:46,460
of right now I mean it's interesting

1310
00:58:52,180 --> 00:58:48,440
somebody told me oh do you love true

1311
00:58:54,310 --> 00:58:52,190
crime like no not really I guess into

1312
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:54,320
any other true crime podcasts or

1313
00:58:59,830 --> 00:58:56,720
anything like that this is just this

1314
00:59:02,490 --> 00:58:59,840
story that I was interested in and you

1315
00:59:07,900 --> 00:59:02,500
know fell down a very deep route a whole

1316
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:07,910
all Cooper all the time oh yeah man well

1317
00:59:11,860 --> 00:59:10,400
I just think it's a lot of fun like I

1318
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:11,870
said in the beginning it can get really

1319
00:59:18,220 --> 00:59:14,810
heavy around here it's nice to just talk

1320
00:59:20,140 --> 00:59:18,230
about something fairly light I mean it

1321
00:59:21,940 --> 00:59:20,150
gets quite dark sometimes doing the

1322
00:59:24,190 --> 00:59:21,950
preparation for these shows so this was

1323
00:59:26,260 --> 00:59:24,200
a little break even for me and I

1324
00:59:28,510 --> 00:59:26,270
definitely enjoyed it so thanks again

1325
00:59:29,890 --> 00:59:28,520
man have a great time at the con and

1326
00:59:31,660 --> 00:59:29,900
keep up the good work

1327
00:59:33,970 --> 00:59:31,670
yeah thanks for having me on Greg I

1328
00:59:36,340 --> 00:59:33,980
appreciate it check out my show the

1329
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:36,350
Cooper vortex and come see me at DB

1330
00:59:44,430 --> 00:59:39,290
cooper con in Portland now November 22nd

1331
00:59:51,260 --> 00:59:47,130
it's the end of the world as we know it

1332
00:59:53,940 --> 00:59:51,270
and I feel fine people hmm

1333
00:59:57,540 --> 00:59:53,950
hopefully you also feel fine

1334
01:00:00,270 --> 00:59:57,550
and I'm sure today's show was unexpected

1335
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:00,280
which you know I like and I also think

1336
01:00:04,829 --> 01:00:02,890
it's a nice break from the heaviness out

1337
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:04,839
there which I know some people will

1338
01:00:10,319 --> 01:00:06,910
agree because I've gotten some messages

1339
01:00:12,329 --> 01:00:10,329
with requests for a cryptid show or

1340
01:00:16,109 --> 01:00:12,339
something in the paranormal realm or a

1341
01:00:19,559 --> 01:00:16,119
movie breakdown episode and this isn't

1342
01:00:22,349 --> 01:00:19,569
that but I think it's medicine for the

1343
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:22,359
same problem which could maybe be summed

1344
01:00:28,050 --> 01:00:26,050
up as the intensity of our time of

1345
01:00:31,230 --> 01:00:28,060
course some will go the other way and

1346
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:31,240
say why do something so mundane when the

1347
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:34,240
world is on fire like it is but the

1348
01:00:40,710 --> 01:00:36,970
global motion picture stage show is not

1349
01:00:43,170 --> 01:00:40,720
taking its cues from THC and the world

1350
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:43,180
has been on some kind of fire since I

1351
01:00:46,980 --> 01:00:44,319
was knee-high to a duck

1352
01:00:49,230 --> 01:00:46,990
and yes the higher side chats can be a

1353
01:00:51,540 --> 01:00:49,240
major conduit to seeing some things

1354
01:00:55,650 --> 01:00:51,550
behind the curtain but does that make

1355
01:00:57,839 --> 01:00:55,660
the fire less hot not really but Darin

1356
01:01:00,450 --> 01:00:57,849
brought it up and told me when the

1357
01:01:02,550 --> 01:01:00,460
conference was and I checked out some of

1358
01:01:05,309 --> 01:01:02,560
his previous interviews and thought hey

1359
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:05,319
if THC is ever gonna have a DB Cooper

1360
01:01:11,130 --> 01:01:08,079
episode in the archive this is the guy

1361
01:01:13,319 --> 01:01:11,140
to have it with and in his previous

1362
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:13,329
interviews he basically says that he

1363
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:15,730
started doing his own deep dive DB

1364
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:18,010
Cooper podcast because he was so sick of

1365
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:20,530
hearing that same template applied to

1366
01:01:26,250 --> 01:01:22,810
the smattering of podcasts that had

1367
01:01:29,370 --> 01:01:26,260
their DB Cooper episode and I vibed with

1368
01:01:32,460 --> 01:01:29,380
that and figured hey we'll do that same

1369
01:01:34,829 --> 01:01:32,470
thing but when I know we're doing a

1370
01:01:37,980 --> 01:01:34,839
one-off show I definitely try to make

1371
01:01:41,010 --> 01:01:37,990
sure it's as full and complete as it can

1372
01:01:44,339 --> 01:01:41,020
be because we're probably not coming

1373
01:01:47,190 --> 01:01:44,349
back to this but it seems like a lot of

1374
01:01:50,069 --> 01:01:47,200
people out there root for a guy like DB

1375
01:01:53,790 --> 01:01:50,079
Cooper in an economic system with such a

1376
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:53,800
strong downcurrent where the story feels

1377
01:01:58,350 --> 01:01:56,770
like a time where an average Joe did get

1378
01:02:01,500 --> 01:01:58,360
one over on the system

1379
01:02:04,980 --> 01:02:01,510
with his one big break and it seems like

1380
01:02:08,010 --> 01:02:04,990
that is a lot of the magic in the DB

1381
01:02:10,020 --> 01:02:08,020
cooper saga but then in the back of my

1382
01:02:11,820 --> 01:02:10,030
mind I go back to a guy like Courtland

1383
01:02:13,980 --> 01:02:11,830
all or these guests we have that seemed

1384
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:13,990
to point out that behind many of the

1385
01:02:18,750 --> 01:02:15,850
household stories and mysteries out

1386
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:18,760
there are people promoting these stories

1387
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:21,450
for one reason or another

1388
01:02:26,359 --> 01:02:24,240
and then as you guys are at home clearly

1389
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:26,369
sitting there with your was this a

1390
01:02:31,819 --> 01:02:29,250
manipulated event checklist you've got

1391
01:02:34,849 --> 01:02:31,829
to put a checkmark in the box for did

1392
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:34,859
this event increase Orwellian security

1393
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:37,530
or infringe on the rights of the people

1394
01:02:43,810 --> 01:02:41,010
with a new standard protocol so from

1395
01:02:46,730 --> 01:02:43,820
that perspective the DB Cooper tail

1396
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:46,740
might not be much different from the

1397
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:49,920
damn shoe-bomber story you know

1398
01:02:54,530 --> 01:02:51,570
something happens once and then it

1399
01:02:57,950 --> 01:02:54,540
changes the protocol forever that's an

1400
01:03:00,050 --> 01:02:57,960
element that I can't ignore it's funny

1401
01:03:03,319 --> 01:03:00,060
because I never heard the e Howard hunt

1402
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:03,329
suggestion and it doesn't really have to

1403
01:03:08,660 --> 01:03:06,450
be him personally but many agents and

1404
01:03:11,930 --> 01:03:08,670
assets to the CIA would have these

1405
01:03:14,780 --> 01:03:11,940
skills and I guess we can't ever really

1406
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:14,790
know if the FBI or law enforcement tried

1407
01:03:20,210 --> 01:03:17,130
their hardest but they definitely didn't

1408
01:03:23,780 --> 01:03:20,220
find their man and it just smells of the

1409
01:03:26,930 --> 01:03:23,790
type of everyman law creation around

1410
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:26,940
something that was an OP that you might

1411
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:31,050
expect it's kind of like they think if

1412
01:03:35,839 --> 01:03:32,880
you just give the people a compelling

1413
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:35,849
mystery or fairy tale that's all they

1414
01:03:42,140 --> 01:03:38,010
need and they're never gonna be looking

1415
01:03:44,089 --> 01:03:42,150
at us plus the CIA always seems to be

1416
01:03:48,020 --> 01:03:44,099
trying to increase their black budget

1417
01:03:49,220 --> 01:03:48,030
funds so there's another compelling item

1418
01:03:51,650 --> 01:03:49,230
on the checklist

1419
01:03:56,930 --> 01:03:51,660
I mean hey the money never surfaced

1420
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:56,940
again right hmm funny how that is so the

1421
01:04:02,510 --> 01:04:00,240
irony is that I try to do a nice simple

1422
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:02,520
one-off show that tackles a fun little

1423
01:04:06,500 --> 01:04:04,770
mystery and doesn't have to remind us

1424
01:04:08,750 --> 01:04:06,510
that nothing is genuine and there's

1425
01:04:11,470 --> 01:04:08,760
always some agents of the system pulling

1426
01:04:14,210 --> 01:04:11,480
the strings and here we are

1427
01:04:16,670 --> 01:04:14,220
hey comedy was supposed to be an

1428
01:04:20,290 --> 01:04:16,680
integral part of the higher side chats

1429
01:04:23,599 --> 01:04:20,300
DNA and I guess the joke's on me and

1430
01:04:25,910 --> 01:04:23,609
again we don't know but the more I

1431
01:04:29,150 --> 01:04:25,920
consider this possibility the more I

1432
01:04:31,579 --> 01:04:29,160
lean towards it if you heard the full

1433
01:04:33,410 --> 01:04:31,589
episode the second hour is where it does

1434
01:04:34,910 --> 01:04:33,420
feel more complete because we took a

1435
01:04:36,859 --> 01:04:34,920
good hard look at

1436
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:36,869
all the mainstream candidates and the

1437
01:04:41,870 --> 01:04:38,730
most likely suspects according to the

1438
01:04:44,150 --> 01:04:41,880
alternative researchers and I do think

1439
01:04:46,789 --> 01:04:44,160
it's just fun to hear about people who

1440
01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:46,799
have had such crazy lives that those

1441
01:04:51,950 --> 01:04:50,160
around them think well [\h__\h] maybe this

1442
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:51,960
is DB Cooper maybe they pull off that

1443
01:04:57,789 --> 01:04:54,210
heist as well as all the other crazy

1444
01:05:00,440 --> 01:04:57,799
[\h__\h] they've done so even if they didn't

1445
01:05:04,430 --> 01:05:00,450
you know they're interesting people so

1446
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:04,440
that was fun we also talked about the

1447
01:05:12,289 --> 01:05:07,440
Zodiac killer case why people think this

1448
01:05:14,569 --> 01:05:12,299
might be the same perpetrator we also

1449
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:14,579
talked about the Alcatraz escape II

1450
01:05:18,620 --> 01:05:16,890
theories and the idea that maybe some of

1451
01:05:21,950 --> 01:05:18,630
the flight crew was in on at all those

1452
01:05:24,700 --> 01:05:21,960
fun possibilities but we also talked

1453
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:24,710
about the culture of these sorts of

1454
01:05:28,900 --> 01:05:26,880
investigations and mysteries the

1455
01:05:31,460 --> 01:05:28,910
researchers fighting amongst themselves

1456
01:05:34,190 --> 01:05:31,470
the fact that the more you learn about

1457
01:05:37,730 --> 01:05:34,200
something the more possibilities you

1458
01:05:40,190 --> 01:05:37,740
entertain the more confused you can

1459
01:05:43,789 --> 01:05:40,200
sometimes get or the more you realize

1460
01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:43,799
that a strong case can be made for a lot

1461
01:05:50,030 --> 01:05:47,910
of things and only one can be true going

1462
01:05:53,839 --> 01:05:50,040
back to a line from that old intro I

1463
01:05:57,470 --> 01:05:53,849
used to use I find the more you think

1464
01:05:59,870 --> 01:05:57,480
you know the less you really do anyway

1465
01:06:02,690 --> 01:05:59,880
good stuff I try hard to make these

1466
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:02,700
episodes as solid as I can for you and

1467
01:06:06,980 --> 01:06:05,010
the higher side chats plus is cheaper

1468
01:06:09,740 --> 01:06:06,990
than Disney Plus which is all [\h__\h]

1469
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:09,750
you've seen before anyway so sign up at

1470
01:06:15,650 --> 01:06:12,690
the higher side chats comm and all your

1471
01:06:18,589 --> 01:06:15,660
wildest dreams will come true plus we

1472
01:06:23,770 --> 01:06:18,599
can stick it to Disney for taking that

1473
01:06:28,660 --> 01:06:25,720
that said I'm pretty proud of the

1474
01:06:31,510 --> 01:06:28,670
overall complete DB Cooper episode that

1475
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:31,520
we'll have in our archives there was an

1476
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:34,090
empty spot on the shelf just for this

1477
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:37,280
I'm also happy to help out someone who

1478
01:06:44,740 --> 01:06:41,599
has taken their subject matter so

1479
01:06:48,910 --> 01:06:44,750
seriously and takes a similar approach

1480
01:06:52,570 --> 01:06:48,920
to podcasting as I do and I also like to

1481
01:06:55,900 --> 01:06:52,580
sprinkle some extra promotional fairy

1482
01:06:58,690 --> 01:06:55,910
dust on live events they're really hard

1483
01:07:02,080 --> 01:06:58,700
to organize and they're really hard to

1484
01:07:05,260 --> 01:07:02,090
turn a profit on seriously I've thought

1485
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:05,270
about higher side con and when you start

1486
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:07,730
to total up flights and hotels and

1487
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:10,010
actual payment for a bunch of speakers

1488
01:07:17,470 --> 01:07:13,970
and a venue the costs get pretty insane

1489
01:07:19,540 --> 01:07:17,480
pretty fast and most people don't commit

1490
01:07:21,099 --> 01:07:19,550
to something until the last minute so it

1491
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,109
can be pretty scary to have this

1492
01:07:26,260 --> 01:07:23,599
front-end investment out there and not

1493
01:07:28,660 --> 01:07:26,270
know if it's really gonna be recouped

1494
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:28,670
I mean I've thought about this enough

1495
01:07:32,589 --> 01:07:30,770
that sometimes after recording an

1496
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:32,599
episode I have talked with some of our

1497
01:07:36,790 --> 01:07:34,160
previous guests who do a lot of

1498
01:07:39,220 --> 01:07:36,800
conferences about what it would take and

1499
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:39,230
they've said five grand plus room and

1500
01:07:45,790 --> 01:07:42,050
board which is like eight or nine grand

1501
01:07:47,470 --> 01:07:45,800
and that's one guy how many $40 tickets

1502
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:47,480
do I need to sell just to break even on

1503
01:07:54,070 --> 01:07:50,810
one guy I don't know exactly but I know

1504
01:07:56,380 --> 01:07:54,080
it's too many so if you are in the

1505
01:07:58,900 --> 01:07:56,390
Pacific Northwest check out Cooper Kahn

1506
01:08:01,599 --> 01:07:58,910
I'm sure you'll find a few new friends

1507
01:08:03,220 --> 01:08:01,609
with similar interests plus it's good to

1508
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:03,230
get off the internet and meet people

1509
01:08:07,750 --> 01:08:05,930
face-to-face once in a while you're not

1510
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:07,760
gonna see me doing that but you should

1511
01:08:14,260 --> 01:08:11,930
do that jk jk put big thanks again to

1512
01:08:16,630 --> 01:08:14,270
Daren for sharing his knowledge and for

1513
01:08:17,779 --> 01:08:16,640
perfecting his craft and I'll see you

1514
01:08:20,959 --> 01:08:17,789
next time

1515
01:08:23,839 --> 01:08:20,969
I've done my part your move mysterious

1516
01:08:26,299 --> 01:08:23,849
skyjackers black ops operators and risky

1517
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:26,309
rebels lain dormant in the shell of the

1518
01:08:36,530 --> 01:08:33,860
lucid dreams are so vivid cuz you go to

1519
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:36,540
bed at 7:00 and your brain comes alive

1520
01:08:42,230 --> 01:08:39,570
cuz your h and nine-to-five you wake up

1521
01:08:44,690 --> 01:08:42,240
with a dread and make sure your cats are

1522
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:44,700
fed did your brain talk to a ghost who

1523
01:08:50,750 --> 01:08:47,010
moved your coffee and your toast as you

1524
01:08:53,540 --> 01:08:50,760
listened to the higher side chats you

1525
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:53,550
get to your desk and your boss says it's

1526
01:08:58,820 --> 01:08:56,370
a mess and your soul slowly goes to a

1527
01:09:03,460 --> 01:08:58,830
place where nothing grows when you think

1528
01:09:06,590 --> 01:09:03,470
he's not around you insert a SETI sound

1529
01:09:10,910 --> 01:09:06,600
vom says turn it down and you say it's

1530
01:09:13,790 --> 01:09:10,920
just the higher side chats oh do you

1531
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:13,800
think you're being invited to Bohemian

1532
01:09:22,340 --> 01:09:18,690
Grove to a Bilderberg Club oh do you

1533
01:09:28,099 --> 01:09:22,350
think you'd be invited by Rasta to a

1534
01:09:30,530 --> 01:09:28,109
party on a submarine diving down

1535
01:09:33,650 --> 01:09:30,540
to the center of the

1536
01:09:37,849 --> 01:09:33,660
to the Marianas Trench your teeth begin

1537
01:09:42,110 --> 01:09:37,859
to clench from the sulphureus stench the

1538
01:09:46,150 --> 01:09:42,120
mask you give in doesn't fit cuz you're

1539
01:09:51,710 --> 01:09:49,070
starting today you'll make plans to get

1540
01:09:54,410 --> 01:09:51,720
away there's no one to hold you down and

1541
01:09:57,260 --> 01:09:54,420
the what if start to drown then you wake

1542
01:10:00,140 --> 01:09:57,270
to the glare of a co fluorescent stare

1543
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:00,150
and the light winks at you cuz its life

1544
01:10:06,350 --> 01:10:02,489
is almost through but it's holding gone

1545
01:10:22,270 --> 01:10:06,360
to quit time just like you it's time for